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Badass Is The New Black (Season 3) Episode #36 The Secret To Creating A Successful Course With Julia Campbell

small business growth and marketing strategies Mar 14, 2022
BNB 36 | Creating A Course

If you want to help people by starting a course but don’t know where to start, this just might be the episode for you! Julia Campbell is the Founder of the Nonprofit Social Media Summit and host of the Nonprofit Nation Podcast. She is an author, coach, and speaker offering modern marketing tips for nonprofits in a digital world. In this episode, she joins Krissy Chin to share how she built and created a successful course for her niche and how you can do it too! Julia gives insightful advice to listeners who want to start creating their course, from finding the right audience to planning your program. She also shares about her work with nonprofit businesses and why it’s important to tap into the right market for your offerings. Tune in for more tips on how to develop your training program and get to know tools from Julia that will help expedite your growth!


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The Secret To Creating A Successful Course With Julia Campbell

In this episode, I sit down with Julia Campbell to talk about creating your course on your own terms your own way. We discuss why people will still buy your course, even though they can get the information for free on the internet, and how to get people in a price-sensitive market to invest in themselves with your offering. Speaking of offerings, if you're still feeling a little bit lost on what you're going to offer and/or what your course is going to be on, and you're in those beginning stages, just trying to figure it out, I've created something just for you. It's a worksheet and a full-on guide. The worksheet is going to help you decide and understand more about what knowledge you have and what type of offering you could turn it into, a course, a workshop or a service-based business.

I also have a complimentary guide that goes with it that's going to help you generate your first $1,000 while working under five hours a week. It could be 30 minutes a day. It’s no big deal. I had someone reach out to me and thank me for that worksheet because it helped them get a ton of clarity on what they were going to do next. That was super exciting for me to get that message and I hope that you'll have the same results with that. If you want a little guidance and you want to get off on the right foot, go grab that worksheet and that guide. I break it all down for you. Just go to


I'm excited to have Julia Campbell here. She was named as the top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine. She is an author, coach and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place. Her books, online courses, webinars and talks have helped hundreds of nonprofits make the shift to digital thinking and raise more money online. Julia, I'm super excited that you're here.

I am fangirling so hard. I'm such a fan of your show. I'm thrilled to be here.

I'm excited to have you here mostly because I'm excited about the topic that we're going to talk about. A lot of people are struggling in this little area that we're going to talk about here about deciding what your course is going to be about. People that are feeling a little bit intimidated by doing it a certain way. Also, people that are feeling like, "Who is going to buy my course when they can get this information for free?" Let's dive in. I want to hear your background because a lot of people reading are trying to figure out, “What am I going to do a course about. What am I going to do a membership about? How am I going to serve these people? I'd love to hear your story of how you got into serving nonprofits.

I studied Journalism in college and when I left college, what I found was that it was hard to get my dream job, which was traveling around with National Geographic and being paid millions of dollars or working with Rolling Stone or somewhere fancy. I ended up joining the US Peace Corps. I lived in Senegal, West Africa for two and a half years. I worked with a lot of NGOs there, doing a lot of projects and managing a lot of moving pieces, living in a village, and just experiencing a different culture and getting out of my comfort zone.

When I came home, I realized that I wanted to continue working in the nonprofit sector, doing fundraising and marketing. I worked within the sector full-time. I had a full 9:00 to 5:00, as we know it’s like a 9:00 to 9:00, job for many years. I think maybe a lot of your readers can relate to my journey to becoming an accidental freelancer. I was laid off from my nonprofit job when I was eight months pregnant with my daughter. I had to make a decision, and I had a Master's degree at the time. Was I going to go back, get paid $40,000, have to commute, never see my daughter, or was I going to try to draw a line in the sand, put my flag out, hang my shingle and say, "I am a freelancer?"

I did that for a while, writing grants, doing social media, writing press releases, and pretty much anything I could find on Idealist or Craigslist. My business now, I work strategically with nonprofits exclusively. I help them manage digital overwhelm and create digital fundraising campaigns. I have three different courses. I do a lot of different webinars and online training to help them increase their confidence and clarity around how they can raise money online in a space that's constantly changing.

What would you say to someone who is on that verge of like, "Should I do a course? Should I not do a course? What am I going to do my course on?" It seems like you took your knowledge, and this is what I teach and preach. Turn your knowledge into profit. Take the knowledge and the skills that you have, and let's figure out how to serve your community through a course and membership. What was it for you that was like, "Now I'm going to transition from freelancing to a course?"

I was doing consulting for a few years, and what I found similar to what a lot of your guests have talked about and what you've talked about, Krissy, is that you come to answer the same questions over and over again or you see the same hurdles if you're serving a very specific niche client. If you're serving your avatar and the people that you're meant to serve, you're answering the same questions or you're seeing the same challenges and problems.

I did a lot of listening. I had an email newsletter before I ever sold anything for probably two years. I've been writing my blog for about ten years, doing free webinars and doing joint venture webinars for probably about five years. I've been in touch with the community that I'm serving and I wanted to do my consulting for a little while. I felt like I had some testimonials. I felt like I had some street credibility and I had some results that I could share. I knew that my process worked. What I found, especially with nonprofits, was that not everyone can afford a one-on-one consultant and I am not cheap. I am not your bargain basement consultant. I have a lot of experience. I've worked with a lot of clients and I'm not charging $20 over here.

We have to have that one signature product.

What I wanted to do was to serve a greater number of people. I wanted to do it in a way that was affordable. I also knew exactly what my clients wanted. I knew exactly what my avatar wanted. I knew that they were looking for a way that they could monetize social media. We're on social media all the time but we're not converting people. How do we convert people to donors or how do we get people on our email list and then convert them? I knew the questions and the challenges. I wished that I'd launched courses sooner. I had that imposter syndrome and thinking everything had to be perfect and tied up in a shiny bow. I had to have all the technology and all of this. My first launch was to my email list and a few social media posts. It ended up being a huge success and I built on that.

Your story is my story, so guys, rewind and read again because there were some golden nuggets in there. It’s really knowing your audience and knowing everything about them and what they want. I've said this before, people buy what they want, not necessarily what they need. How can you figure out what they want, but also give them what they need so that they can be successful? They can get results. They can turn into great testimonials for you. I love that you knew your audience. That's one struggle with people who just dive in with, "I had this idea and I'm going to go for it." It’s like, “Let's do some market research and make sure that people want this.” Also, there are a lot of people in your situation and my situation that were needy, working with people, and develop the course because of that.

Another thing that helped me was that I came from the sector. Nonprofits are a very different animal than your traditional consumer or maybe your traditional business. They're very skeptical. A lot of them have worked with consultants before. A lot of them are not necessarily tech-savvy. They're not as into the online marketing world as all of us. They take courses all the time, “Sign me up for the next shiny new course. I love online learning.”

Even trying to convince them that I'm trustworthy and that this is worth doing, and that they can get something out of it. There were so many mindset blocks and shifts that I continually still have to overcome. Speaking their language, they knew I was a Development Director. They knew I was a Marketing Director. They knew I'd worked in the trenches in nonprofits. That helps me be able to speak to them in a more authentic way.

This leads me back to what I was about to say that you were that person who is solving your own problem or you learn how to solve your own problem. Now you're going back to serve the people that were where you were years ago. You know that person very well because that was you. You said that they were very reluctant. It's almost like you had to convince them that they wanted this and that they needed this. How did you do that?

I do a lot of webinars. I have done a lot of free webinars. I've done a lot of speaking on stages virtually. I've written two books. I feel like I built up my audience and convince them to come on this journey with me way before I launched my course. It wasn't a solution looking for a problem. It was a solution that had a problem that people were telling me that they had, but I didn't know. I knew that people had asked me for some cheaper, low-cost training. They'd asked me, when is your next webinar? When is your next speaking engagement? We can't afford to hire you one-on-one, but we love your blog. We love your email list.

It was taking imperfect action and it was saying, "I'm going to do this. I'm not going to invest a lot of time and money upfront." The key for me is the test was, "I'm going to beta test this. I'm going to beta launch this and I'm going to do it live." I'm not going to spend $10,000 and record it and not do client work for six months, and then see if people want it. I'm going to sell it first, and if they do want it, then I'm going to run the best live course that has ever been run. My philosophy with the course is to test it out to see if people will purchase it. As you know, everyone will say, "I want this," but when it comes time to pull out their credit card, it's a little bit of a different story.

That's the only way that you will know if it's successful. I pulled my email list. I have a Facebook group of 14,000 nonprofits. I asked them. I talked to my clients. I did all of the things. I even did the Amy Porterfield Digital Course Academy qualifying calls. I did all of that, but at the end of the day, you do have to sell it. You have to give them something where they can put down their credit card. That is the part where you learn from it if it doesn't work out as well as you want. You learn what people are willing to invest in and what people are willing to pay for. That was a huge eye-opener for me.

To validate that point, that's exactly how I want you to build a blissful business for the first course for this coaching brand. It was coming up with the idea, coming up with the outline, and selling it before any lessons were created. Sold it and ran it as a live launch. We're going to move through this, one module each week together over six weeks with the intention that it could be standalone and evergreen moving forward. I'm someone who works well, but not well against deadlines. I will continuously push it out until I say it out loud, announce it on the show, set up the webinar and say, "This course is happening," and then I'm like, "Now I have to create it,” but I will create it. I could be recording the night before.

People are counting on you.

I'll hold myself accountable in that way. It's not the most glamorous non-stressful way to do it. I'll be honest. I don't know if you have a similar feeling in that because you're racing against a deadline. Unless you have a full team of people to do all the little things, and I know you do solo. We'll talk about that too. It isn't the most relaxed way to do things, but sometimes you got to push yourself off the ledge to go do it, and stop overthinking and overanalyzing and saying, "Is anyone going to buy this?" Let's just see.

I believe that there are multiple ways that you can launch and run your course. I'm a gigantic fan of Elizabeth Buckley-Goddard. She is a British online entrepreneur. She inspired me to get started before you're ready and to launch your idea before you're ready. She does a combination of live training and also recorded training, but she then sometimes runs live whenever she decides that she wants to.

What she does with her live training is she responds to her audience. She sees what's getting them excited, what are they interested in, and what is jazzing them up. That's what she puts on evergreen and then eventually, she might run it live again at some point. She has all sorts of different revenue streams and training. She does not have that one signature product that I know we're all told. We have to have the one signature product.

She has a huge product suite and she was my inspiration when I went full bore into doing online courses. Done is better than perfect and you have to respond to your audience. You have to respond to what they want. I know for my audience, they're nonprofits. They're not going to spend $3,000 on a bright, shiny course like Impacting Millions or DCA Digital Course Academy.

This is not something that they're going to go to their boss to get money for. It's not something they're going to get reimbursed for. It's just not something they're going to spend money on. I think it's very intimidating. They love live teaching and coaching. They love the interaction with each other and the Q&A. I know that is what my audience likes. I hope to be providing that for them for the foreseeable future.

That's solid advice to create it twofold. I'm always about creating the business that you love that supports the lifestyle that you want. A lot of people do come to me wanting to do evergreen because they literally want to be on vacation and just see that money rolling in when someone purchases their course, which is great. I love that it can be whatever you want it to be. One of my private clients loves doing the work with people. She wanted to serve more people than just one-on-one, but she didn't want to take that interaction away. It's like, “Perfect.” Let's create the course so you have this support with you.

You have to respond to your audience and what they want.

They can do the lessons that you said, you're saying the same thing over and over again. You're solving the same problems. Let's put that into the course, but you can live launch it. Do a live workshop that then pitches this course. You can do the live training with the course. It can be whatever you want it to be and then also thinking about your audience. I love that you said your people want that interaction. You're also creating it based on what they want, which means you'll have a better conversion rate because if they want it, they will invest in it.

It's very exclusive. Now I have three courses. I used to just have one but now I decided to have three. I love creating content and I love solving new problems that people come to me for. I have a course on social media, on storytelling, and my new course is specifically on running a digital fundraising campaign. I run them once a year. I will sell the recordings but very occasionally.

To me, it's very exclusive. If you want to get in this year, you got to get in and it helps push people off the fence, and then people also know. Now they've started to know, "She's going to run social media for Social Good Academy in February. I already know. I can plan. I can budget. Storytelling That Sticks is always in June, and now my new course is probably going to be always in September or October.

I have people that have stuck with me for all three courses. I have people who are waiting for the one. I have people who have come to me, taken the course, and then became a one-on-one client. There are all sorts of ways that you can come to it. Also, the ways that I do launches are very not stressful. I do some emails, some Facebook ads, a couple of Facebook lives, and some social media. I don't spend 24 hours a day glued to the screen and I don't stress out. I'm much more of the view of I will tell you what I'm making.

I'm making it for you. I'm making it based on your questions and based on what you want to hear from me and I will invite you here. I will tell you and remind you a bunch of times, but I am not about browbeating people and beating them over the head and sending 72 emails. That's another thing about my clients, they don't like that. One email a day for two weeks would never work for my clients. It's more like 5 to 10 emails, very low-key, a lot of interaction, answering emails, DMs, phone calls, and things like that. It's understanding what your client needs and wants.

You're like, "It's no big deal. No stress." Do you have all that created before you start marketing?

I do for the other two courses. Now that I've launched them a few times, it's a lot easier. The new course it's harder because I have to create it, but it's all content that I have. I've either been writing blogs about it or I've been doing webinars here and there or it's something I've worked on with a client. It's a process that I've run and used with clients. It's not coming up with something from complete and utter scratch usually.

This is something I always run into. I overthink it and I put too much content in, and what I've found with my audience is they want it distilled down. I think that's true for a lot of people. It’s not trying to put all the bells and whistles, and every possible thing you could ever know about social media. Just tell me, how do I get from A to Z? What do I need to know and how can I simplify it? People don't need more information. They need to know the most important information for them to achieve the transformation or achieve their goal.

For the person out there that has this idea for a course. They know who their audience is because they work with those people. They know what the problems are and the struggles and they know that they can help them, but then they have it stuck in their mind, “They're not going to pay for this. Who's going to pay for this because they can get this free on YouTube, on social media or wherever. This is out there.”

We were chatting about this. I'd love to dive back into that. I know you've got some good insights. I might have some things to throw in there. You also work with a price-sensitive audience so that falls in line with this. If they're price-sensitive, aren't they going to be going and looking for the free stuff? What have you done and what would you say to that person that is having that mindset block that no one's going to pay for this because they can get it for free?

The people I work with are very price-sensitive but they're incredibly time-crunched. They are not going to go to Social Media Examiner, my blog, every other social media expert out there and try to piece together, how the heck do I start a Facebook fundraiser and how do I really use it? What are some good examples? How do I keep it going? How do I create momentum?

You could spend probably a week of your life trying to sift through a lot of the stuff that is garbage out there. A lot of the free stuff out there is the why. Why do you need this? Why you need to do digital fundraising, social media, storytelling, and very little about how and what are the steps you need to take, and what is the exact process that you need to follow. That's where I believe in the paid content. Distilling it and putting it into a system, a framework or a blueprint.

The value is telling them you can avoid the overwhelm and strip out all of the nonsense.

When I teach my free content, it's a very high overview. It's like, "This is what you should be doing but this is not how exactly you should be going about it." In my paid courses, it's always a step by step. We usually run for five weeks. It's usually 4 or 5 steps and here's what you need to be doing now because that's what people are paying for. That's why they pay consultants because they want to be shown the framework, the blueprint and the step by step. They want to know what to prioritize and when.

I think that's the value. If you're creating something that's paid, how can you differentiate it from all of the fantastic free content that you're putting out there that you should be putting out there? I firmly believe in that. That's how I built my business and how I became established as an expert in the field, putting out a ton of free content, getting people to trust me, know me and like me. When you work with me or you go inside my course, it is, "Here's a worksheet, the checklist, and exact framework that I walked through with my clients." That's what's going to differentiate your free content from your paid content.

If you're reading, you're going to step back and think about your business and what you're doing. Think about how many years it's taken you to get to this point to learn everything and how can you fast-track it for someone? It's not just your audience. We're all busy. It's the times in the day and you would think things would slow down. No. We are getting busier. It's getting noisier. The other thing is there's so much content out there. While you might think that's to your disadvantage, it's actually to your advantage because there's so much that it causes a ton of overwhelm. There are a lot of people out there that it's not great content. It's a ton of the why.

It takes time to sift through all of it. Do you ever read Chillpreneur by Denise Duffield-Thomas? It's my favorite book and she's absolutely fantastic. She talks exactly about this. She talks about how anything that we're doing should be framed in terms of saving time or money. Any offer that you have is always going to result in either saving time or saving me money or somewhere along the line because time is money.

That's how I frame it. I say, "You could go and Google a bunch of videos and you could look at all of my free webinars throughout the years." Go through all my Facebook lives throughout the years and somehow piece together this weird piecemeal formula, but I'm going to give it to you in four weeks. We're going to go through it together and it's going to be streamlined and you're going to walk away with an actual plan.

She talks about this as well. The value is telling them you can avoid the overwhelm and strip out all of the nonsense. I will give you the nuts and bolts that you need because as you were just saying, I do think that the overwhelm, constant churn, constant noise, notifications and all of the stuff out there can work to our advantage if the people that we serve are very strapped for time, which all of us are. I don't know who isn't strapped for time.

We are. We're busy. We're just getting busier. I love what you said. If you can save them money, if you can save them time and the other one, I want to add is give them peace of mind. Those are the three. When you're marketing and selling, think about what you're doing. Can you save them time? Tell them how you can save them time and what they'll be able to do when they have that time saved. Can you save them money? Maybe or maybe not. Most likely you can, even if you're a B2C or a business to consumer and you're not helping them make more money. If you can help them save money or make money. Also, that peace of mind. Most people don't pull the trigger because they're not sure. They're not sure that they're going to be able to find the result that you're promising. That's where on your sales pages, those frequently asked questions are to help you give them peace of mind. That's where testimonials come into play.

Who's it for? Who's it not for? I'm such a fan of sales pages that say, "Who it's not for?" I value that and that's incredibly helpful to people because you don't want people to go through your course that are not ready for it, not prepared or it's just not for them right now. That doesn't mean it's no forever, but it doesn't help them and it doesn't help you as a business owner to constantly be shepherding people or trying to manipulate them to sign up for your course if they're not right for it.

You want to draw on the right people because that's what brings in lasting consumers. Like Julia now, she's got her product suite with lots of different options. They can move through that process and not be one-time customers, but lifelong customers and you can support them long-term. The last thing I want to talk about before we jump off is, how are you doing it so low?

It's not a badge of honor.

You have a very successful business.

Sometimes it is.

I want to hear some of your tips and tricks because there are a lot of people that are getting started and they don't have the funds to go and hire out a bunch of stuff. I'm of the mindset of if you have some extra funds and you hate doing it, you're not good at doing it, you're pressed for time and you just want to get it launched. You can hire that graphic designer to do some of your graphics for you because you're literally going to go crazy if you do them yourself, do that. For the people that can’t, I’d love some thoughts, advice and tips on how to make it work for you.

I have two kids. I'm married. I have a pretty active social life. I'm on the school committee. When people ask me how do I do it, I simplify. Another author I'm a huge fan of is Michael Hyatt. He talks about focusing and he talks about streamlining. He also does talk a lot about hiring out, which is something that I do have on my to-do list. The one person that I do work with, because I just started a podcast, that was when I realized there's absolutely no way that I can do this podcast 100% by myself, also because I don't know how to edit a podcast. I don't know how to put it into Spotify and Apple.

It's basically magic. I don't know how anyone does it. That was when I realized, "I do need to outsource this to a freelancer who can do it for me." Mostly, I'm incredibly and brutally organized. I have a bullet journal. It's all color-coded. It's got all my goals. All my to-do lists are on it. Also, I'm a very good delegator in my personal life. My husband, it does take a village to raise the kids and get them to do activities and do all of those things. We're a real team in that aspect, but I have made a decision in my life just to say no to many things.

The only way you're going to be happy is doing things on your own terms, the way you like to do them for the people that you like to serve.

What's crucial is to identify what is an opportunity and what is a distraction. What is something that you think could be a big ego boost for you, but it's not going to help you move the needle on your goals? Also saying no to projects that you might want to work on. That's something that's been difficult for me. For me, what I value is my free time. I value my time with my family. I value not working on the weekends.

To me, there's nothing wrong with having team members, but I never wanted to grow and scale in a way where I'd have to worry about salary, overhead or other people just because I’m thinking, “I want to take off for the week. Go away with the kids, take the day off. I would never want to have to worry about another team member.” That being said, I don't think you should take all of it on yourself if it's not necessarily in your zone of genius. Getting a bookkeeper, there's no shame in that. Getting someone to edit your podcast, if you're not an editor, if that's not what you love to do, then you absolutely should be doing that. For me, it's worked out well and I've enjoyed the ride so far. We'll see where I am in a few years.

You guys have to be really organized.

You do have to be super organized and cut out everything, and also don't feel bad if you don't respond to people's text messages for a few days. I always have to tell my mom, "I can't talk, sorry. Talk to you at 7:00 PM." I'm busy.

You are doing some things. You're hiring out for your podcast. You are just inching into it. It's totally fine. When there's something that you're like, "I need to offload this." Just finding the budget to be able to do it is a huge time saver. You don't have to launch into like, "I'm solo and now I have a ten-person team." It starts with one person. Yours is starting with that podcast editor and you're going to see. I have a hunch that you're going to see how amazing it is to be like, "This person that is on their brain and it's floating around in their head. I don't have to worry about it after I'm done recording and it's taken care of," and then you'll say, "Where else could I do that in my business?"

It is like you said. It's funny when I talked to my husband about it. He thinks hiring five people on a salary with benefits, I'm like, "I just mean somebody to pick up the kids." That's the outsourcing I'm talking about right now or someone to check my email once in a while and respond to email. You're right. There are totally different levels and you do have to inch your way into it. Also, I do realize that the only way to scale if I wanted to scale would be to hire people. Right now, I'm fine where I am. I look at everything as seasons in my life. This is the season I'm in right now. Potentially, I could grow into another season and it could look completely different. It's all about where you are and what you're comfortable with.

It’s what you want everything to look like. It’s life by design. If you want your business, you want to be in it, it's working for you, you have the free time that you want and you're able to do the projects you want, then there's no shame in that. You do you. If you want to have more free time and hire something out and pass that off, you can do that too. If you want to live launch your course and have live sessions with your people, you can do that. If you want to create it all in advance and pitch it through a prerecorded webinar and people jump in and they're just taking care of it because you did an amazing job setting everything up, you can do that.

Don't get stuck on, “I have to do it how Julia did it. I have to do it how Krissy did it.” What I pride myself in doing is helping people figure out what they need and moving in that direction. I’m not saying, “You're coming to me as a coach, whether you're working with me privately or you're in the scale to six communities and you have to do it evergreen.” No. Let's figure out what's going to work for you. What's the lifestyle you want in 1 year or 5 years? What do we need to do now to make sure that you have what you want because that's the only thing that matters?

There are many ways to go about it. That's the beauty of online businesses. That's the beauty of the internet. That's the beauty of being yourself. The only way you're going to be happy is if you're doing things on your own terms, the way that you like to do them for the people that you like to serve. That's how I've tried to organize my life and my business. I know it's the only key for me to long-term sustainable happiness. Not everyone has that privilege and opportunity, but if you're reading and you're struggling, just see what makes you happy and unhappy in your business. Try to emphasize the things that you love and de-emphasize the things that you don't like.

How can we connect with you more, Julia? You serve nonprofits but can other people benefit from your offerings or is there any way to connect with you and learn more from you?

I have an interesting following of nonprofit consultants. People that want to be consultants are following me and seeing how I do things. My website is I'm on Instagram @JuliaCampbell77. You can connect with me there. I'm pretty much on all the socials, but that's where I hang out. My website is where my blog is. You can find out there my podcast and other great things.

Is that where we should be sending people to your podcast or to your blog? Where should people be connecting with you more?

My podcast is Nonprofit Nation Podcast. I release a new episode every Wednesday. All my contact information is there as well. The podcast I designed is not just for nonprofits. It's about leadership. It's about resiliency, especially in a post or not post-COVID world. I talk to all sorts of different interesting people about all sorts of different types of topics. It’s whatever I want to talk about, and my cool friends and cool people that I've met. Probably, my podcast is the best way to connect with me.

I loved having you on the show. It was so great to talk to you and I know that the people reading are going to find so much value in all of these little nuggets across these areas that we shared. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you so much, Krissy. I really enjoyed it.


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About Julia Campbell

Free nonprofit masterclass: 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media Content that Converts! Register for free:

Hi, I'm Julia! I've been working in and with nonprofits for 20 years. Currently, I train nonprofits on the most effective ways to use storytelling and digital marketing to accomplish their goals and to achieve the kind of growth that they desire and that they deserve.

Using storytelling and digital tools, my nonprofit clients reach more supporters, engage more donors, and build their movements! Email me to explore working together - [email protected]

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